Championship Structure
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Championship Structure
OK, so I had an idea to spice up the solo championship. Just to be clear, I haven’t discussed this with anyone on the BOD and this has no “official” status whatsoever. For now it is just something to stir the pot and generate some off season discussion. We’ll see if it goes anywhere from there.
I’m not a fan of calculator racing, but the popularity of PAX class this year says that I might be in the minority on that point. That said the championship categories would be (I think I got them all)
Street
Street Touring
Street Prepared
Street modified
CAM
Mod
Prepared
Junior Kart
Each category would be made up of the individual classes as defined by the SCCA rule book. Standings would be determined by PAX index. So at the end of the season there would be a champion from each category
There would still be a PAX champion, but no PAX class. The PAX champion would be determined by assigning points based on the overall PAX results from each event. So yes, someone could win two awards, or not, depending on how many different categories a driver competes in over the year.
I like this because it increases completion at individual events and reduces the number of “perfect attendance” champions.
So what do you think?
I’m not a fan of calculator racing, but the popularity of PAX class this year says that I might be in the minority on that point. That said the championship categories would be (I think I got them all)
Street
Street Touring
Street Prepared
Street modified
CAM
Mod
Prepared
Junior Kart
Each category would be made up of the individual classes as defined by the SCCA rule book. Standings would be determined by PAX index. So at the end of the season there would be a champion from each category
There would still be a PAX champion, but no PAX class. The PAX champion would be determined by assigning points based on the overall PAX results from each event. So yes, someone could win two awards, or not, depending on how many different categories a driver competes in over the year.
I like this because it increases completion at individual events and reduces the number of “perfect attendance” champions.
So what do you think?
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
I think this sounds like a good proposal.
I would enjoy the increased competition of the complete Street category especially since HS generally has the least number of entries. Direct competition means much more to me than a trophy and will force me to focus on my driving development in order to be competitive with the other classes.
I would enjoy the increased competition of the complete Street category especially since HS generally has the least number of entries. Direct competition means much more to me than a trophy and will force me to focus on my driving development in order to be competitive with the other classes.
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Re: Championship Structure
I think for local events this is a great format . Pax isnt perfect for each event but it is pretty close over the long run . Grouping like classes together keeps Pax from being an advantage for certain prep level , tire or horsepower combination . We have done ladies classes like this with good success.
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Re: Championship Structure
I like the idea of reducing the number of "participation" trophies, both from a financial and competition perspective. That being said, I would propose that classes have the ability to "break out" of the grouped structure if they meet some participation criteria. For example, if GS has four or more drivers eligible for the championship at the end of the year, it is removed from the "Street" group and allowed to have its own trophy for the season. This would allow well-attended classes to have their own trophies and not "dilute" the chances to trophy for the rest of the eligible "street" drivers.
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Re: Championship Structure
It's an interesting idea. Lots of devils in the details but plenty of time to work those out. I've always liked having good competition in my class. When you're the sole competitor in a class it's no fun. Providing Pax classes provides that opportunity. The first year we had the Tire class it was the most subscribed class that year.
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Re: Championship Structure
This format would end the "TIRE" class, and would also allow more prepped cars and drivers to have an advantage over beginners. This may push some people away. Looking forward to the discussion and logistics.
Tim
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Re: Championship Structure
Good point. I don't have a problem adding Tire, Ladies, and Novice back in.hemitud wrote:This format would end the "TIRE" class, and would also allow more prepped cars and drivers to have an advantage over beginners. This may push some people away. Looking forward to the discussion and logistics.
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
This would make sense if we had a majority group of racers that where equally competitive across the board. Yet if you look at some of the results from the year the gaps in pax in the street category can be huge. I thought pax class did a great job this year giving drivers who wanted to fully prep a car for a class and find competition with like minded individuals.
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Re: Championship Structure
I suggested this last year and it got shot down because people didn't want to race the calculator. I would enjoy it.
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Re: Championship Structure
The gap for the street cars are very dependent on site. I like the PAX class that we have because it lets me drive whatever I want at whatever event that I go to with all my points going to the same class. "Also the fully prepped cars" there were only a handful of 80% prep cars and all of the ones that I can think of were in street class.Devilsword wrote:This would make sense if we had a majority group of racers that where equally competitive across the board. Yet if you look at some of the results from the year the gaps in pax in the street category can be huge. I thought pax class did a great job this year giving drivers who wanted to fully prep a car for a class and find competition with like minded individuals.
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Re: Championship Structure
"Fully prep" was just a general statement talking about people who spend the time and money to prepare a autocross car to be competitive. Honestly i just think this will kill the fun aspect of it for some and force others to have long talks with the wife on why i purchased a bunch of stuff to stay competitive across the classes. ![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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Re: Championship Structure
Just from my experience, driving a borrowed car of course, there was a big difference depending on site, as stated above. There is also a major difference in the tire...when the rules changed and the new UTQG came into play, our times slowed down accordingly just by going to a less competitive tire. So I can see the serious driver, that preps the car to the limit of the class, having a distinct advantage over the guy that just runs for the fun of it in a separate class. So now you take the just for the fun of it guy and put him against a serious driver for year end points.
Tim
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Re: Championship Structure
First, it's great that a lot of people are interested in tweaking the awards / points system. Keep the ideas flowing!
Second, I think a similar idea got shot down last year because we were rapidly approaching the first event of the season and didn't feel like the BOD would have time to weigh the implications of the proposed 'class bumping'. We're starting this discussion much earlier this year so everyone has time to explain their ideas and come to a consensus. I prefer to think of last year's idea as being tabled - not denied.
Third, I personally like Ray's idea of grouping similar classes but Henry makes a great point regarding high-population classes. I think we should add Tire, Ladies, and Novice classes as they cater to specific groups of event participants. Chris brings up a great point regarding car prep (varying widely across a class) and it's probably my biggest complaint about the SCCA classing system, but it's the paradigm we're working under.
Just to clarify, I think we're talking about how to group the classes together for BRR points / trophies. Each competitor will select an SCCA class for his or her car and PAX will be determined from that. However, at the end of the season, points will be awarded across a group of classes (e.g. Street, ST, SP, SM, CAM, etc.). We had several competitors drive multiple vehicles in PAX class last year - could we maybe offer a PAX class for these folks? I think this should come with the stipulation that you declare your intention to run PAX before the start of the season and are then ineligible to win other trophies. This prevents someone like myself from winning PAX and CAM classes. In essence, any other CAM competitors would more than likely lose to me throughout the season even though they weren't running PAX class. We're a regional club and I think it's important to give amateurs / newcomers a legitimate chance to win a trophy.
Second, I think a similar idea got shot down last year because we were rapidly approaching the first event of the season and didn't feel like the BOD would have time to weigh the implications of the proposed 'class bumping'. We're starting this discussion much earlier this year so everyone has time to explain their ideas and come to a consensus. I prefer to think of last year's idea as being tabled - not denied.
Third, I personally like Ray's idea of grouping similar classes but Henry makes a great point regarding high-population classes. I think we should add Tire, Ladies, and Novice classes as they cater to specific groups of event participants. Chris brings up a great point regarding car prep (varying widely across a class) and it's probably my biggest complaint about the SCCA classing system, but it's the paradigm we're working under.
Just to clarify, I think we're talking about how to group the classes together for BRR points / trophies. Each competitor will select an SCCA class for his or her car and PAX will be determined from that. However, at the end of the season, points will be awarded across a group of classes (e.g. Street, ST, SP, SM, CAM, etc.). We had several competitors drive multiple vehicles in PAX class last year - could we maybe offer a PAX class for these folks? I think this should come with the stipulation that you declare your intention to run PAX before the start of the season and are then ineligible to win other trophies. This prevents someone like myself from winning PAX and CAM classes. In essence, any other CAM competitors would more than likely lose to me throughout the season even though they weren't running PAX class. We're a regional club and I think it's important to give amateurs / newcomers a legitimate chance to win a trophy.
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Re: Championship Structure
OK, so to answer some of the comments
I'm good with that because it fits in with the intent that you should have real competition for a year end award. I took a quick look at the standings and no SCCA class met that criteria last year. I agree that Ladies, Novice , and Tire should be included.would propose that classes have the ability to "break out" of the grouped structure if they meet some participation criteria. For example, if GS has four or more drivers eligible for the championship at the end of the year, it is removed from the "Street" group and allowed to have its own trophy for the season.
Yes, but that was the same for everyone. We all had to buy new "Street" tires. The impact of that change on competitiveness is more about the choice of which legal tire to use and not a direct effect of the rule.There is also a major difference in the tire...when the rules changed and the new UTQG came into play, our times slowed down accordingly just by going to a less competitive tire.
There is always going to be a difference in the prep level of the cars in a category. Again, that is a matter of choice, not something dictated by the rules. So imagine you are at a track meet and you are competing in the 100 m dash. When you look at the competitors you can see that some of them have obviously trained for the event and others that have not. In a foot race the fastest guy wins, so to make sure it is "fun" for everyone do you give out two trophies? One for the guys who are in shape and one for those who aren't? The guys who came to the race out of shape could have trained if they wanted to, but for whatever reason, they chose not to. I get that there are economic and other factors involved, which some will say invalidate this analogy, but I think the concept still hold up.So I can see the serious driver, that preps the car to the limit of the class, having a distinct advantage over the guy that just runs for the fun of it in a separate class. So now you take the just for the fun of it guy and put him against a serious driver for year end points.
So if you look at the proposal, everyone participates in PAX class at every event. We print an overall list of PAX times after every autocross, if your name is at the top of that list you won "PAX Class" that day. The difference is that everyone participates in the year end PAX championship rather than a self selected subset of drivers. This still allows someone who drives a different car at each event to participate in a year end championship.We had several competitors drive multiple vehicles in PAX class last year - could we maybe offer a PAX class for these folks?
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
Bumping the classes together like this would make it more competitive for everyone. I like the idea, also I think that letting the novices run all year in novice class would be good too, so that they wouldn't get creamed by some other veterans. As for the guys not winning just coming out for fun, if that is why you are coming out ,then you shouldn't be concerned with winning and just have fun with whatever class you are in.
I would not be opposed to getting rid of pax class if we bump the classes together like this. My only competition concern when bumping the classes together like this is scheduling when classes run. I don't like when people in direct competition run in separate heats.
Also there are a few clubs that I run with that have a champion of the club, who has the lowest pax time for the whole year. I really like this idea.
I would not be opposed to getting rid of pax class if we bump the classes together like this. My only competition concern when bumping the classes together like this is scheduling when classes run. I don't like when people in direct competition run in separate heats.
Also there are a few clubs that I run with that have a champion of the club, who has the lowest pax time for the whole year. I really like this idea.
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Re: Championship Structure
I think the point was missed with my statement. Solo has always been entry level racing that is something easy for anyone to get in and enjoy. I have always hated the thoughts of making it more competitive through dilution. In doing so you exclude/discourage those who would want to get into solo who may not have the most competitive car, or enough money to do more than pay a entry fee. I remember my first solo event where at registration i was told i have no hope of placing, through the event that i brought the wrong car, and why i wont be competitive. If it wasnt for Rob being so welcoming to me and my wife(then gf) at my first brr event, i would have not continued to show up. So to me telling a novice that you either have to build a car, not just to be competitive for the class but also against the others seems like it will only chase away future club members in a already small club. In my case for me to be serious competition GS pax wise for street, i first have the wrong car, transmission, tires, suspension, exhaust, ect. I would have to build a separate gs prepared racecar. If thats the case i should have stayed in SMF if i wanted to daily a slightly streetable car that i go out every morning and throw a wad or cash at. This isnt a option for everyone. So here is the real qeustion how much of a financial burden is these extra trophies at the end of the year? Do they warrant this change in the system?
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Re: Championship Structure
I dont really care about the money stand point of the trophies and I have no idea how much they would cost, but I think making people run in bigger classes makes it more fun to me. I HATE running by myself in a class, they last event was so much fun where James, Gary my brother and I were all within a half second of each other and I was winning, then ended up loosing to my brother in my car. Stuff like that makes it fun for me personally not getting a plastic cone at the end of every event.
As for the prep level of the cars; that car was bone stock, 230 thousand mile shocks, stock bars, stock exhasut and a decent set of tires-not even the best ones, and my brother took top time pax. So it isn't all about car prep.
As for the prep level of the cars; that car was bone stock, 230 thousand mile shocks, stock bars, stock exhasut and a decent set of tires-not even the best ones, and my brother took top time pax. So it isn't all about car prep.
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Re: Championship Structure
But you are applying your experience and desire to be competitive as a deciding factor. To you, you love the competition, and you have been doing it for quite some time. For the first timer, our club has always wanted to approach every event as an invitation to anyone, and never make them feel like they have no chance like was mentioned above. We, as a club, try to promote the fun part of the experience more than the trophies, or year end awards. But the way you get people to return is to make sure they have fun.I dont really care about the money stand point of the trophies and I have no idea how much they would cost, but I think making people run in bigger classes makes it more fun to me. I HATE running by myself in a class, they last event was so much fun where James, Gary my brother and I were all within a half second of each other and I was winning, then ended up loosing to my brother in my car. Stuff like that makes it fun for me personally not getting a plastic cone at the end of every event.
The cost of the awards has never been a deciding factor for the club, and I dont think ever will be. I have always encouraged everyone to come out to an event, we will get you classed so you are competitive within your class, hence the "tire" class being created as a BRR class only, and number one is to have fun. If we start bumping people into classes, I am afraid the fun factor will disappear quickly and they may not return. Every competitor will make the decision when they need to upgrade their car, but that comes over time after attending many events and then THEY make the choice to improve. By Bumping, it would appear that the club is making that choice for them...either maximum prep your car, or settle for something close to last in STREET, or PREPARED.
I guess my final thought is that I am against class bumping....and there are times I am the only one in my class, but still have fun.
Tim
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Re: Championship Structure
I think this discussion has gone off of the rails a bit. As I understood the original idea, "bumping" wouldn't occur until the end of the season when championship standings are tallied. I don't think the intent was for bumping to occur at each event. Did I miss something?
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Re: Championship Structure
Bumping at the end of the season, equates to not running for a year end trophy; meaning your points from each event and your participation at each event isn't gonna mean much by the end of the season when PAX totals are calculated. If our intent is to narrow down year end trophies, you are also gonna narrow down banquet participants.
Tim
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Re: Championship Structure
I can see both sides of the coin here. Sure it will allow for better competition, but at what cost? Do we want to risk losing future members who can't necessarily compete with the veterans? On the flip side though, running in a class by yourself is a disappointment. I know I haven't been attending many events the past few years, but when I do, sometimes there is only one car in my class. There have been a few times where I bring home a plastic cone, and the wife and kids ask how I did. I hang my head, and tell them there was only 1 car in class - me. I would much rather finish mid-pack in a well contested class, than win a class of 1 or 2 cars. Anyone who knows me knows that I am very competitive, it's in my blood I guess.
I can remember when I first started out back in '01 I ran the old STS class, and there were always a lot of cars in class. Myself, and 3 or 4 other regular BRR members would compete at every event, normally within a second of each other. That was really fun. Due to me being 'out of the game' for several years, I wouldn't contend for this new championship, but I will still enjoy driving against many other drivers as opposed to 1 or 2. I have been toying with the idea of prepping the MINI for STX, but do I want to go down that road? I mean, that would put me in Steffen's class afterall. Yikes...
But we also need to consider how this would affect the novice driver or the 'just for fun guy'. I think if we retain the Tire, Novice, and Ladies classes, this will go a long way. Even if the Novice driver, if they're fortunate to win the year-end Novice trophy, doesn't want to compete in the new bumping system, they could still run the Tire class, if they are able to. Would give them a place to play so to speak.
In light of Henry's comment above, I do think that this whole scenario is geared towards the year-end championship tally, and not each individual event. Ray, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but each event would be classed as 'normal', but when it comes time to calculate year-end points and champions, we use this bumping method. ??
Not sure I added some meat to this discussion, but thought I would share my thoughts just the same.
I can remember when I first started out back in '01 I ran the old STS class, and there were always a lot of cars in class. Myself, and 3 or 4 other regular BRR members would compete at every event, normally within a second of each other. That was really fun. Due to me being 'out of the game' for several years, I wouldn't contend for this new championship, but I will still enjoy driving against many other drivers as opposed to 1 or 2. I have been toying with the idea of prepping the MINI for STX, but do I want to go down that road? I mean, that would put me in Steffen's class afterall. Yikes...
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
But we also need to consider how this would affect the novice driver or the 'just for fun guy'. I think if we retain the Tire, Novice, and Ladies classes, this will go a long way. Even if the Novice driver, if they're fortunate to win the year-end Novice trophy, doesn't want to compete in the new bumping system, they could still run the Tire class, if they are able to. Would give them a place to play so to speak.
In light of Henry's comment above, I do think that this whole scenario is geared towards the year-end championship tally, and not each individual event. Ray, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but each event would be classed as 'normal', but when it comes time to calculate year-end points and champions, we use this bumping method. ??
Not sure I added some meat to this discussion, but thought I would share my thoughts just the same.
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Re: Championship Structure
You have it righthklvette wrote:I think this discussion has gone off of the rails a bit. As I understood the original idea, "bumping" wouldn't occur until the end of the season when championship standings are tallied. I don't think the intent was for bumping to occur at each event. Did I miss something?
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
Yup, that's right. I'm OK with giving out event winner cones for folks who make the effort to come out and find that they are the only car in that particular class. I do think it should be a little harder to win a season championship.In light of Henry's comment above, I do think that this whole scenario is geared towards the year-end championship tally, and not each individual event. Ray, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but each event would be classed as 'normal', but when it comes time to calculate year-end points and champions, we use this bumping method. ??
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
OK, so I don't understand this. Your event results will count just as much as they do now. You will get championship points based on how you placed within your group at that event. At the end of the year we just add up championship points and see who has the most within that group.hemitud wrote:Bumping at the end of the season, equates to not running for a year end trophy; meaning your points from each event and your participation at each event isn't gonna mean much by the end of the season when PAX totals are calculated. If our intent is to narrow down year end trophies, you are also gonna narrow down banquet participants.
If we are not happy with attendance at the banquet then maybe we need to change how we do the banquet
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
It the points per event are as they are now, and then you take the class point at the end of the year and simply add them together, you will come up with a bunch of ties..then what?
This year we had a bunch of 128, 120, I didnt realize this was the plan. I thought the year end would be based off of PAX....I was confused.
As for the banquet, we usually only have class winners and board members show up, I agree we need a better plan to get more people.
This year we had a bunch of 128, 120, I didnt realize this was the plan. I thought the year end would be based off of PAX....I was confused.
As for the banquet, we usually only have class winners and board members show up, I agree we need a better plan to get more people.
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Re: Championship Structure
Again this goes back to punish the person in said class because they are the only driver...not their fault, but yet they dont get fair treatment.Yup, that's right. I'm OK with giving out event winner cones for folks who make the effort to come out and find that they are the only car in that particular class. I do think it should be a little harder to win a season championship.
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Re: Championship Structure
Here is likely example..i drive STU all year as the only driver and win every event..get all first place points. Add it up at the end of the year and I have the most points by default. How is this fair to a guy that runs STX and has more competitors in class and finishes second a couple of events. He doesn't get a year end trophy, but finished first in class at year end.
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Re: Championship Structure
I always liked the idea of points being awarded for how many people you beat in class. First in a two person class would get fewer points than 2nd in a 6 person class. Makes it somewhat tricky to calculate.hemitud wrote:Here is likely example..i drive STU all year as the only driver and win every event..get all first place points. Add it up at the end of the year and I have the most points by default. How is this fair to a guy that runs STX and has more competitors in class and finishes second a couple of events. He doesn't get a year end trophy, but finished first in class at year end.
When I was a newbie many years ago, bumping was the norm for single car classes. It got rid of the participation trophies but sometimes you could get bumped 2 or 3 classes up on a bad day.
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Re: Championship Structure
I my mind people will find a way to compete if thats what they want. Bruce and i had a joke "You know one day i will be the only person in my class so i can win a trophy." Still there was a point where all i had to do to drop out of SMF ( At that time we average 4 cars in the class) was to put the factory hood back on. Then i would have been the only one in FSP, but i choose to stay in SMF to have a benchmark for my improvement. Hell one of the reasons i join vmsc was so i could race the other veloster. Honestly all year long i have heard minimum complaints about our organization and its events so why should we change? Just to stop instant winners? The only real complaints i heard was 1. we need to find a better way to deal with novices to have a safe event(which probably should be brought back up in a different topic) and 2. the biggest complaint i heard at multiple events is why dont we have a separate top pax for racers with fenders and ones without. The later being something that really sturs peoples pot when they loose pax to a kart.
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Re: Championship Structure
Are you talking about raw time??? Karts can and have been beaten in pax at many events, if there is one kart you are referring to in particular that most of the time takes top pax at half the events he goes to............. well he is the second fastest karter in the nation and he would win pax in any half decent car.Devilsword wrote: 2. the biggest complaint i heard at multiple events is why dont we have a separate top pax for racers with fenders and ones without. The later being something that really sturs peoples pot when they loose pax to a kart.
I dont think you quite understand pax if you are meaning pax instead of raw time.
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Re: Championship Structure
A faster guy in a better prepared car is always going to place better than a novice in an under prepared car . Saying this will affect a Pax group should be irrelevant ,, You are saying let the fast guy just beat the guys in his class , let them suffer the consequences of being in his class but lets give these other classes in that Pax group a chance to win without him affecting them . By nature of the Sport , the faster guy wins . This comes down to the Point , Do you want to instill competition into the format or do you just want to give out participation trophies ? You can simply have an NC (No Competition) or TO (Time Only) class for those that just want to drive and not compete . again its all in this,,,Do you want to instill competition into the format or do you just want to give out participation trophies ? Pax Group means more competition , leaving open groups satisfies the participation award crowd . Thats the only decision you need to make ,,the rest of the discussion would just be noise.
and PAX class ,still takes the faster cars away from the general classes.
and PAX class ,still takes the faster cars away from the general classes.
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Re: Championship Structure
If you are interested in scoring all street together as a pax for a year end trophy, my suggestion would be to tally it formula one style. I.E. If James is the fastest street car with a 60.00, he would get a 100.00 score, say Gary comes in second with a 60.5, He would then receive a 99.5.
I would like to see all the classes this way. I don't like you finishing second by .002 and you get 4 less points than first place. It makes the championship race closer. This should be fairly easy to do with basic excel skills.
I would like to see all the classes this way. I don't like you finishing second by .002 and you get 4 less points than first place. It makes the championship race closer. This should be fairly easy to do with basic excel skills.
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Re: Championship Structure
Huh? F1 uses a similar points setup to what we already use...tehmaxfactr wrote:If you are interested in scoring all street together as a pax for a year end trophy, my suggestion would be to tally it formula one style. I.E. If James is the fastest street car with a 60.00, he would get a 100.00 score, say Gary comes in second with a 60.5, He would then receive a 99.5.
I would like to see all the classes this way. I don't like you finishing second by .002 and you get 4 less points than first place. It makes the championship race closer. This should be fairly easy to do with basic excel skills.
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Re: Championship Structure
Sorry not using the formula one system* but using a percentage system. I shouldn't post that early in the morning. lol.
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Re: Championship Structure
I find this idea interesting. Started looking for other ideas out there and ran across this: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 500/page1/tehmaxfactr wrote:If you are interested in scoring all street together as a pax for a year end trophy, my suggestion would be to tally it formula one style. I.E. If James is the fastest street car with a 60.00, he would get a 100.00 score, say Gary comes in second with a 60.5, He would then receive a 99.5.
Keep the current class structure we have but find a way to better compare drivers. Doesn't work with the people that change cars during the season.
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Re: Championship Structure
That's waaaay more math than I want to deal with.glenthompson wrote:I find this idea interesting. Started looking for other ideas out there and ran across this: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 500/page1/tehmaxfactr wrote:If you are interested in scoring all street together as a pax for a year end trophy, my suggestion would be to tally it formula one style. I.E. If James is the fastest street car with a 60.00, he would get a 100.00 score, say Gary comes in second with a 60.5, He would then receive a 99.5.
Keep the current class structure we have but find a way to better compare drivers. Doesn't work with the people that change cars during the season.
Ray
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Re: Championship Structure
Nope just as i said it. I understand pax is a system that allows all classes to be compared and compeate on equal playing field even though i have trouble figuring out how they decide what classes should be given what handicap. Yet you are right on occasion i was also asked about the fastest fender but only on days that we had a large group of open wheel racers. Once again just relaying the things i heard.tehmaxfactr wrote:Are you talking about raw time??? Karts can and have been beaten in pax at many events, if there is one kart you are referring to in particular that most of the time takes top pax at half the events he goes to............. well he is the second fastest karter in the nation and he would win pax in any half decent car.Devilsword wrote: 2. the biggest complaint i heard at multiple events is why dont we have a separate top pax for racers with fenders and ones without. The later being something that really sturs peoples pot when they loose pax to a kart.
I dont think you quite understand pax if you are meaning pax instead of raw time.
As for the rest, it seems this is a case of if it isnt broke dont fix it.
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Re: Championship Structure
I wrote up a little excel formula to do the math for you. I am not sure how you are going to have a points for year ending trophy for all ST if you use the current system because Steffen and Tim could win all the events in STX and STU and end up with the same amount of points. With a percentage system the likelihood of a tie becomes very slim. If someone wanted to send me the results I would volunteer to tally up the year end points on a percentage system. I like the plan of the combined year end trophy.rschumin wrote:That's waaaay more math than I want to deal with.glenthompson wrote:I find this idea interesting. Started looking for other ideas out there and ran across this: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 500/page1/tehmaxfactr wrote:If you are interested in scoring all street together as a pax for a year end trophy, my suggestion would be to tally it formula one style. I.E. If James is the fastest street car with a 60.00, he would get a 100.00 score, say Gary comes in second with a 60.5, He would then receive a 99.5.
Keep the current class structure we have but find a way to better compare drivers. Doesn't work with the people that change cars during the season.
I also like this system because it rewards margin of victory.
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Re: Championship Structure
http://solotime.info/pax/rtp2016.html check out Rick Ruths page, he is the one that makes pax based on results. From what I have seen the biggest factor of the changing pax is the drivers. Take for instance CSP, this year we have to beat the Evos and STis in RAW time, the same rule set for both cars but our 140 hp car is supposed to outrun them. This is due to a great driver in csp that took top pax of nationals and did very well at other events. I am sure he would do the same in any other class, but it shows you what the top driver/car should be able to do.Devilsword wrote:Nope just as i said it. I understand pax is a system that allows all classes to be compared and compeate on equal playing field even though i have trouble figuring out how they decide what classes should be given what handicap. Yet you are right on occasion i was also asked about the fastest fender but only on days that we had a large group of open wheel racers. Once again just relaying the things i heard.tehmaxfactr wrote:Are you talking about raw time??? Karts can and have been beaten in pax at many events, if there is one kart you are referring to in particular that most of the time takes top pax at half the events he goes to............. well he is the second fastest karter in the nation and he would win pax in any half decent car.Devilsword wrote: 2. the biggest complaint i heard at multiple events is why dont we have a separate top pax for racers with fenders and ones without. The later being something that really sturs peoples pot when they loose pax to a kart.
I dont think you quite understand pax if you are meaning pax instead of raw time.
As for the rest, it seems this is a case of if it isnt broke dont fix it.
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Re: Championship Structure
First of all, thanks to Ray for getting this started. It's great to have this debate.
As I read it, there seem to be two constituencies that the board needs to be listening to. One group of people is aiming to keep things the way they are by maximizing accessibility and fun. And the reward at the end (a trophy) keeps them coming back for more. Valid points.
Another group wants to make things more competitive and reward the top drivers for being the top drivers. I'll point out that it hardly seems fair that James, Brock, and Brad aren't getting trophies because they chose to be in a competitive class.
So, I'll say that I like Ray's proposal. But perhaps there is a way the board can have its cake and eat it too.
I propose that we keep the existing class structure, points structure, and trophy systems as is, and ALL CARS will run in their base class (e.g. B Street for me). At the end of the year, each base class awards a trophy to the top driver (assuming there is at least one qualifying driver).
In addition, EVERY driver ALSO runs in one of the index classes as appropriate (Novice, Ladies, PAX, and maybe Tire). At the end of the year, each of the index classes awards one or more trophies.
With that, the fun constituency gets their trophy at the end of the season; while the competitive constituency gets to find out who the best driver is without forcing people to choose to enter a competitive class while risking not getting a trophy. If we want to make some trophies bigger or shinier than others, or one gets a jacket and another gets a plaque, those are all details that can be worked out. Also, we might want to consider whether a different points system might be appropriate for an index class that might have 100 participants. Again, a minor detail. Finally, I question whether a Tire class is needed at all, given the prevalence of street tire classes these days.
Good luck to the board making a decision on this. Clearly, we want to promote fun and participation. But in the end, we are racing-- we are there to compete. Hopefully, this proposal allows us to improve the program in both ways.
As I read it, there seem to be two constituencies that the board needs to be listening to. One group of people is aiming to keep things the way they are by maximizing accessibility and fun. And the reward at the end (a trophy) keeps them coming back for more. Valid points.
Another group wants to make things more competitive and reward the top drivers for being the top drivers. I'll point out that it hardly seems fair that James, Brock, and Brad aren't getting trophies because they chose to be in a competitive class.
So, I'll say that I like Ray's proposal. But perhaps there is a way the board can have its cake and eat it too.
I propose that we keep the existing class structure, points structure, and trophy systems as is, and ALL CARS will run in their base class (e.g. B Street for me). At the end of the year, each base class awards a trophy to the top driver (assuming there is at least one qualifying driver).
In addition, EVERY driver ALSO runs in one of the index classes as appropriate (Novice, Ladies, PAX, and maybe Tire). At the end of the year, each of the index classes awards one or more trophies.
With that, the fun constituency gets their trophy at the end of the season; while the competitive constituency gets to find out who the best driver is without forcing people to choose to enter a competitive class while risking not getting a trophy. If we want to make some trophies bigger or shinier than others, or one gets a jacket and another gets a plaque, those are all details that can be worked out. Also, we might want to consider whether a different points system might be appropriate for an index class that might have 100 participants. Again, a minor detail. Finally, I question whether a Tire class is needed at all, given the prevalence of street tire classes these days.
Good luck to the board making a decision on this. Clearly, we want to promote fun and participation. But in the end, we are racing-- we are there to compete. Hopefully, this proposal allows us to improve the program in both ways.
Will
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